Latin America: Developments in Chile & Venezuela

In an interview with Newsclick, Marta Harnecker, well-known writer on Latin America, discusses Latin America in general and Chile and Venezuela in particular. Harnecker says there is a new situation in Chile with the election of Michelle Bachelet and hopes that the new correlation of forces in the parliament would enable her to make more progressive changes. In Venezuela, violence is still continuing. Harnecker underscores that an overwhelming majority of people continue to support Nicolás Maduro, as they see in him a continuation of the economic policies that Chavez stood for.
 

Prabir Purkayastha (PP): Hello and welcome to Newsclick. Today we have with us well-known writer on Latin America, Marta Harnecker to discuss what's happening in Latin America in general but particularly in Chile and in Venezuela. Marta, good to have you with us.

Marta Harnecker (MH): Thank you for inviting me. We have in Chile a new situation with Bachelet. But there's not too much optimism from some sectors because she has done in the past a neo-liberal policy and now its true that she has a new correlation of forces in the parliament that would permit her to do different things.

PP: Marta, before we come to that, do you think there's a symbolism that Allende's daughter as the president of the senate swore her in. Therefore in this sense, this term could be different from what was the last term which was really something which came as a part of a compromise in which she took over power, but agreeing that she wouldn't really rock the boat.

MH: I would be very happy if that happens, but you know, I don't know if Isabel Allende represents really different position than Bachelet. I think that they are both daughters of big men, you know. We will see in the practice what would happen. And the problem is, from what I know, the last news that I have is that the cabinet, many of the ministers are very unpopular persons. The minister of education is the one that initiated the policy that the youth wants to delete, you know. Minister of defence and the secretary are also related with the things in the past that the Left doesn't like. So, I hope that with the pressure, with the movements, mobilise – that would be very important to see what happens. And I always say that in Latin America, the most important thing is that the organised people from below are attentive and making pressures to our governments.

PP: Student movement from 2011 has been particularly active. The Left students have really taken up the issue about how the education system is going too much in favour of the rich and how therefore their demands regarding education should be met. And this has been a big movement …

MH: But you now there was another movement in 2006 and it was, well, they promised things and they didn't do anything. So the youth is very sceptical and its true, its very interesting – I was in Chile in 2010 in the final, and I couldn't imagine what would happen four months later, in April. Chile was completely.., people didn't have hope and then erupts this movement of students, that was not a student movement only because all the family was involved because the banner was a banner that touched every person in the family. The problem of credit; we are in a society, in Chile specially with credit sorcerers – men, tarjeta de credito (credit cards), because all the people are indebted and students specially, because the family is indebted, not only the student himself, no. So this is a big problem. The new cabinet, the new minister and these movements... Also I knew that they began their new government with mobilisations, because they don't trust too much what would happen.

PP: So, some hope but we need to be also sceptical and keep the gaze of the movements on the government.

MH: The hope is – students and social mobilisations in general, mobilise. I think that these probably would permit to do something with the new correlation of forces in the parliament.

PP: Do you think some of the student leaders winning elections, very young leaders, would make some difference to their voice being heard more effectively.

MH: I hope so. But I don't know if it was a good thing to put Camila Vallejo, for example, as deputy, because the youth is very sceptical about political and just she has been a good student leader and then immediately go to the parliament... I don't know really..

PP: It may effect her ability to lead further movements.

MH: I think she has lost some attractive to the movements. In general, the youth is very sceptical. But they are doing interesting things. In the Assemblies, they work by assemblies, not by representatives. They don't work with the bureau of the students but they work with big assemblies. And when I ask them: Well, but how do you co-ordinate the country. No, no, we elect a representative from the South, from the Centre etc., but the interesting thing is they elect this person, but as they are very sceptical of representative persons, they have the experience of deputies that are elected who never go to the people. They have invented something that I call political commissar of the base, because you know the political commissar was the party controlling the technicians in Russia for example. Here it is the assembly that designs somebody to take care that if there is a representative person of the student, is he marching with the decisions or outside them; applying the decisions that have been decided in the collective. I think that is interesting, how could you invent some solution when you have those problems.

PP: That's an older problem of how to really, what shall we say, keep the movements on track and how to keep them aligned with the people. It's not an easy question. All different kinds of forms, including that you saw, the assembly itself has a problem, for instance Occupy Wall Street. Finally it is when you have to strike, there could be a problem with what to do with the assemblies. But nevertheless, interesting formations, interesting developments in Chile looks like to me coming into again some kind of Left wing politics. Let's see how it pans out even as you say that you don't know, given Bachelet's record in the first presidency that she really didn't push the Left agenda but really lived with what was Pinochet's legacy.

MH: Michelle Bachelet is a very charismatic person, a very normal person. I met her in Cuba; its really like one person of the group, no. She has that possibility and she has the movement and she has the correlation of forces in the parliament; then really she has to go ahead, no.

PP: And deliver. Now coming to, from Chile in which we have some possibilities, some very interesting developments taking place, if we come to Venezuela, for the last 2 months, international media has been talking about how Maduro is losing popularity and how those who actually lost the elections have taken to streets to try and unseat Maduro. They are not even willing to talk to the government in Venezuela and are demanding that Maduro must resign. What do you think of this movement that has supposedly sprung up in Venezuela?

MH: I must say you that the last poll that has been done 2 or 3 days ago are different from your information.

PP: No, it's not my information. This is what the international media is saying which I am deeply sceptical about and Newsclick has been reporting the other side.

MH: Aha, probably then they don't have the last poll...

PP: International media has that information and will hide it because it wants to propagate a view on Venezuela as something...

MH: No, no this is something recently; the recent poll the results are, 54 % , if Maduro is now presented as president today, 54 % will vote for him and the other opposition will win is 37%, you know. And also who are against violence. You haven't talked about that but it's very important. This movement, there is a big confrontation between those who support Chavez and those who are opposed. But the problem is this opposition began to do, part of the opposition began to do violent actions, and this has been rejected not only by pro-Chavez but also by a part of the opposition; so the polls also say that 30 % say that the violence is negative; 33 % say very negative; like 70 % of the population is against those violence. I think the art of politics is to contract the correlation of forces that permit us to do something. Well, Maduro I think is really doing a very smart policy, that is, he took on board a section that is non violent to the dialogue, a dialogue that is very different from other dialogues because it is on the TV; it is not a secret dialogue. So they tried to see that speeches on the TV are very coherent because it's not something which is secret; it's in the face of the people. And Maduro has had a control of himself to be able to hear the critiques and say: Well, you have your arguments and I have mine; you won't convince me, I won't convince you but we have to have some common thing about what to do in Venezuela because you and I are for the defence of motherland. And then let's work together on what is common to us. And I was astonished to read an article of one of the opposition persons that went to the dialogue, because not all went, you know; each meeting of the dialogue, come more people of the opposition to the dialogue. This person is in the opposition but he wrote something, two things that I was astonished. First, the violent opposition and the other opposition is not violent and criticise the violent and then also criticise something which has been the banner of the opposition until now– Cuban presence in Venezuela. And this guy of the opposition says: why do you say so, when all the presidents of Latin America, the more reactionary ones have gone to visit Fidel and have gone to Cuba. Why do you say Cuba, no. So, you begin to see the effects. But some radical Left does not understand this at all, this necessity of the dialogue and says, now the petty bourgeoisie is conducted by the bourgeoisie. That is their analysis.

PP:Well you know the interesting part is of course that the United States has given up the idea that a transition in Venezuela away from Maduro or Chavez legacy can be had. I think it seems to be that their strategy of violence on the streets to try and overthrow the Maduro government. This is something that they have done in Ukraine and unfortunately successfully. So the belief is that if you have sufficient amount of violence against the government, you can try and turn the mandate. Now, of course, it doesn't seem to be working in Venezuela, clearly as you said but internationally the United States and others are still trying to continue on that mode. Do you think this is going to fizzle out or do you think this is going to continue as a long drawn out violence which the opposition to Chavez legacy is going to continue with ?

MH: Well, the last news that I have is that the violence continues. And what I have heard is that the opposition has not pronounced against. So that could be a doubt about the real democratic intentions of the opposition that is criticising the violence. They are not, but they don't publicly go, you know. But what I was saying I think that the economical situation is the key problem now to resolve because the people support Maduro, a little more than half because they feel that Maduro is a continuation of the economical policies of Chavez and the more poor people have been very favourised by the economical policy but specially because they began to be considered as subjects. They feel that the president is their president and they have been invited to construct with them the new society and the dignity of the people is something that is very difficult to delete, you know. They feel empowered. So this support is very important. But the economical situation is really effecting, specially the middle classes, also the poor people. So one of the objective of the dialogue is to do agreements with some sectors of the productive sector of the country, capitalist; that inviting them or doing agreements to produce what we need in the country and not import. And that situation, well, Michael Lebowitz, economist, could tell you much more what he thinks is the solution to the economical problem.

PP: There is an underlying economic pressure on the Venezuelan government and that could also tell on the popular mood, which currently is against this kind of violent attempts to overthrow an elected government. It was elected only 3 months back, so that's really absurd.

MH: That's why we say what the opposition is doing is a gift to the government because the economic problem is so complicated but now violence is the first problem.

PP: One of the interesting parts that is also not so known in the international media, and I do hold international media as an interested party not making this public is the fact that the number of police and others who died in the hands of protesters, so-called protesters

MH: The army, yeah...

PP: In fact, the number that had been killed by the protesters exceeds the number of protesters who have died. While the attempt is to put all of the dead as if its all been done by the State machinery against the protesters. So these are some of the things which are interesting to watch, how the international media is getting completely one-sided view of what’s happening...

MH: You know the thing that they have done; the news in the world showing pictures and footage of other countries – its incredible, really. That's why we have to do what Correa do with the press, with the media, you know. He puts the news and compares – this is what they published, this is what we have said; continually, each Saturday he explains to people these lies of the press.

PP: That's one of the problems that the press , even in Venezuela is still in the hands of forces who are not favourable to the revolution, forget international press.

MH: Well, part of the press because we have national channel that has the orientation of the government.

PP: Yes, but apart from the national government media, the other media is very much in the hands of the Right in Venezuela and a section of the Right seems to have decided that electoral politics is not something they will ever succeed in and therefore whether alternatives exist for them. That's an interesting development and hopefully it will be in further isolation...

MH: And, you know, the other thing is that Chavez has not died; that's something that perhaps you don't realise but I see in TV everyday, the opposition channel and the channel Venezuela – Chavez has spoken so much of everything, in any thing that pass in Venezuela, the voice of Chavez or the video of Chavez is there. So the people are orientated by him in all the situations. This is also very important for the spirit of mind, for the spirit of the people.

PP: Last question. Do you think coup that took place against Chavez in 2002 , are people able to relate that to the current attempts at violent overthrow of the Maduro government. The same forces that tried in 2002 and failed are trying to do the same thing in 2014. Is that a parallel which is being drawn?

MH: Probably the same forces are doing so. But the difference is, I think that the army forces now has not those generals who were there at that time. They detect the people that were against and the army forces happily think that they are very very strong, related with Maduro's government and supporting, yeah..

PP: So the army is no longer going to play that role. Thank you very much. It's been good to have you with us and hope to see you again.

MH: Thank you.